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Leaving ROTC
Last Post 15 Jul 2009 09:15 PM by ENmafia. 18 Replies.
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Joshrk22User is Offline
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Joshrk22


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18 Jun 2009 06:10 PM

I just finished my freshman year at a top engineering school. I am considering leaving ROTC to hopefully go Guard/Reserves and if that doesn't work out then try getting a slot through OTS.

I would rather fly for the military "part-time" and work a normal civilian job. I also like the Guard because I can apply for a pilot slot at squadrons that fly the airframes that I want (fighters.. Rolling Eyes ) I would also apply to OTS just in case I don't get picked up by a guard or reserve unit.

Here's some stats:

GPA: 3.54 in Computer Science Engineering
PCSM: Haven't taken TBAS
AFOQT: P 99, N 99, Q 99, V 45, AA 85
Flight hours: 70 w/PPL; gonna start instrument soon
PFT: 100's on all

I have quite a few ECs from high school, such as three sport athlete for 4 years. Trying out as a walk-on for football team this year. Many leadership positions. I will also be working at an FBO 20+ hours a week to pay for school since I will be losing my Type I scholarship, and it will help get me a deal on flying time. I am also pledging a frat in the fall.

I just feel by leaving ROTC to go Guard, it will affect me negatively. I have yet to talk about my cadre about this but I feel if I explain what my end goal is they will be more understanding on my form DD785.

Am I really hurting myself by leaving ROTC to go Guard? I want to fly fighters (yes officer first, I know), but I feel by going active duty a lot is up in the air right now (UAV's, not getting a slot at all and then serving non-rated, etc..).

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rywillUser is Offline
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rywill


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09 Jul 2009 08:22 AM

Definitely go guard if you can.  I was in the exact same position as you 6 years ago.  I was scholarship freshman year but got out cause I wasn't exactly sure if I wanted to stick with a technical degree (ended up with a CE degree anyway) and cause I didn't like ROTC (a few reasons, but mainly I wasn't excited about playing AF for 4-5 years and then not knowing what I'd actually end up doing).  I decided I wanted to do a real job in the AF while going through college (this is my own humble opinion, I know a lot of guys who really enjoyed ROTC and I couldn't be happier for them).  Plus, if I'm lucky enough to make in into the officer corps, I'll have some prior enlisted experience that I'm hoping would make me a better leader.

I joined the local Guard unit as a jet mech and have enjoyed doing some real mission work on the weekends and in the summer while going to college.  Most of college will still be paid for (I actually worked it out one day and for the hours I worked in a given year I was earning well over $50/hr with all the benefits and such).  Now, I'm nearing the end of my enlistment, I've had some great opportunites to see some cool stuff, go some cool places, do some real work, live a regular college life (mostly), and get some good face time with the guys who make the selections when it comes to apply to be a pilot (which I just got selected to be!).  Sounds like it'd be a good fit for you, too, wanting to fly part time with a civilian life on the side.  A lot of guys actually make it work just flying part time (Guard bumming).

If you think you're serious about doing it, give the recruiter a call, visit the unit, and get a tour of the place.  Talk with some of the guys in the AFSCs you think would be fun (I had no mechanical background and had decided I wanted to learn how to work with tools, so maintenance was a good fit for me), and get a feel for what you'd be doing, then go from there.

Let me know if you have any other questions/concerns.  It was a tough decision for me to make cause I wasn't sure if I was ruining my chances by quitting ROTC, but I don't think anyone is going to look down on you if you quit so you can enlist with the hopes of still becoming an officer some day.

Good luck!

ENmafiaUser is Offline
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ENmafia


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09 Jul 2009 09:29 PM
Go Guard! You have a good plan and good stats and great S.A. on the situation as a Freshman. If you want to fly fighters the guard is the way to go...especially if you can take an AD mindset into applying.i.e. you don't have a problem applying all over the country to get a spot. You can always apply to OTS too like you said and if you quit ROTC and focus on your grades you will be in great shape...IMO. Make sure you research the TBAS so you know how it works before you sit down to take it and set yourself up so you can take it twice if necessary before you start sending out application packages. You have to 180 days to retake and everyone is eligible to take it twice if you so desire. I was in ROTC and ended up getting out and in the Guard and couldn't be happier! It is the best kept secret in the AF and for good reason.
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HackerUser is Offline
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Hacker


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09 Jul 2009 11:21 PM
Just a word of reality here -- the ANG isn't the panacea that many people make it out to be, so make sure you go into this with open eyes.

A couple areas where neophytes have the wrong idea about "going Guard":

ANG units DO NOT "guarantee" you any particular type of airframe. Yes, in the short term you will go to UPT "knowing" what airframe you will fly when you graduate, but it is not uncommon for units to change aircraft. The trend in the last decade has been for major changes every time there is a BRAC. The last one was in 2005, and I'd expect another round within the next 5 years (based on the frequency of the previous BRACs). Expect more units to switch to UASs in future realignments.

Guard units are NOT "flying clubs". Although historically ANG units were comprised of tight-knit people who rarely ever deployed (if at all), the OPTEMPO of the average Guard unit has gone through the roof post 9/11. Even part-timers are going to spend a whole lot more time away from home than they used to. This is, of course, a double-edged sword; if you want to deploy, then you will have no problems doing so. Generally young guys are all fired up about deploying, but I guarantee you that the newness will wear off quickly.

Bottom line: Going Guard may or may not allow you to sidestep some of the complaints people have about being on active duty. I, personally, think that the ANG and Reserve kick ass, and I wish someone had clued me in on things a lot earlier in my career. On the other hand, being on AD has allowed me to experience things and go places that being in an ANG or Reserve unit would probably not have.

Just make sure you look at all sides of the problem before you make a decision. What is right for others may not be right for you.
Joshrk22User is Offline
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Joshrk22


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10 Jul 2009 05:14 AM
I'm actually sitting at the airport now getting ready to head home from my PDT now. I'm gonna' make one last effort to talk to my cadre about going through ROTC and commissioning into the Guard. Right now I'm almost 100% positive I'm going to go Guard. Every guy I talked to on my PDT said "if you can, go Guard, I wish I knew about that option when I was your age". Will it take a lot of ass busting to get that spot? Yes, but I think I can do it and I think it'll be well worth the ass pain. I know I can't start competing for Guard slots until senior year, but when I get back I'm going to go visit the local Guard unit (127th WG) and start talking with some of the pilots. I am also going to look into enlisting with a unit to get my name known in the Guard.
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HackerUser is Offline
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Hacker


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10 Jul 2009 06:27 AM
I think that most people would advise against enlisting in a unit to get your name known there, unless it's more important to you to be part of a particular unit than it is to get a pilot slot.
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Ua


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10 Jul 2009 07:37 AM
To add to will.i.ams notion, and specifically his saying, "I had no mechanical background and had decided I wanted to learn how to work with tools, so maintenance was a good fit for me" as a “Jet Mech” (I’m assuming crew chief, or engine shop….) he has gained the benefit of in demand, real world experience working on sophisticated aircraft that the civilian aviation industry is ALWAYS looking for. I know this because I took a LOA from my Federal Technician Job as a Structures Mechanic at my home unit to try the outside world (my wife was having our first son, and requested to be closer to her mom...) As soon as I walked through the door, supervision was blown away. I didn't think I was doing anything over the top or special, but the fact I knew what I was doing, really cared about the end product, and was eager to please had them offering me more money and paying for my FAA Certifications (which, because of my experience as a Guardsman/Technician I didn’t have to take any classes to get signed off to test). I just did what I did every day at work before and I was instantly at the top of the shop. Reason being, in all reality, there are a lot of lazy half assed people out there and if you come through the door capable and willing to do what is expected of you, you are an instant commodity. I have also recently been selected to fly after a long hard road, but I took solace in the fact that if in the end I didn't get a slot, I still had years and years of in demand sheet metal experience to fall back on. Plus, since I was working on C-5s at my unit, I got the added bonus of learning to use hot bonders, and work with some advanced composites, which is the direction the civilian aircraft world (and everyone else for that matter) is going anyway. So while I never lost sight or let up on my goal of getting a pilot slot, I knew in the end I had gained a great skill, a 4 year degree, plus a 2 year degree through the CCAF, just by doing my job. It's tough to beat, I have no ROTC experience and I'm not saying there aren't any negatives, but there are definitely WORSE ways to go.....

Also, I have to agree with will.i.ams comment concerning having a few years enlisted can really help you when you get commissioned. I’d even take it a step farther and mention going from Maintenance to Ops. It goes a long way to know how the other side lives.
rywillUser is Offline
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rywill


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10 Jul 2009 09:25 AM

Hacker brings up some really good points and may have a better perspective than I do.  The guard isn't the silver bullet for everyone.  It has its share of drawbacks.

You're on the right track though.  Get both sides of the story.  Keep talking to folks and make sure it fits you (both enlisted and commissioned).  Definitely swing by the unit and talk to some of the pilots.  I waited way too long to make it over to ops to get to know some of those guys cause I thought they'd bite my head off.  They're regular guys who were at one point in time in your shoes.

Joshrk22User is Offline
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Joshrk22


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10 Jul 2009 03:14 PM
Should I just call the unit's recruiter? I want to speak to both a recruiter and some of the pilots, but I don't want a recruiter to just pressure me to enlist, I want to get some pilots' perspectives. And being on my PDT, it seems like most of the actual work is done by enlisted and the officers do the desk jobs and oversee everything. I think two years of actually doing the work and moving wrenches would help appreciate the enlisted side once I become an officer. Does anybody know any guys down at the 127th WG down at Selfridge?
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ENmafiaUser is Offline
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ENmafia


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14 Jul 2009 12:12 PM
Posted By Joshrk22 on 10 Jul 2009 05:14 AM
I'm gonna' make one last effort to talk to my cadre about going through ROTC and commissioning into the Guard.
I know for a fact you cannot commission from ROTC into the guard.  Once you sign your sophmore enlistment and esspecially after you sign it after F.T. and again if and when you get an ROTC pilot slot you are on Active Duty's books and AFPC won't let you go. I know a guy who was bored and pissed about the year and a half wait between commissioning out of ROTC and starting UPT that he started rushing guard units (after he found out about them).  He got hired by the Mass F-15 unit and had approval from their commander and his old AFROTC commander to transfer his commission to the guard and attend UPT with an F-15 follow on and AFPC told him no way.  They aren't even letting AD folks palace chase until their entire Active Duty Service Commitment (ADSC) is up which is Ten years after training so almost 13 by the time you count a year and half wait for UPT and a little over a year for UPT.

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Joshrk22User is Offline
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Joshrk22


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14 Jul 2009 09:48 PM
I was talkin' to some people, and you're right, I can't do what I was hoping to do. Luckily I just finished my freshman year so I have the "freshman option" and can get out without serving an enlisted commitment or paying back the money. Thank you everyone for the replies! I've wanted to do the Guard since I was back in high school and I finally feel (after months to years of searching around) that I'm making the right decision for me. We'll see how it all plays out.
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ENmafiaUser is Offline
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ENmafia


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14 Jul 2009 10:12 PM
Congrats on making a decision...IMO either way you did a good job of getting some info, seeking some input, and doing what you think is right.

Make sure you keep us posted on what you end up doing..i.e. enlisting in your hometown unit, not enlisting and rushing various units, enlisting in your hometown unit and applying to others etc, or applying to OTS. You still have a lot of options and though I wasn't ever enlisted I know there are some nice college benefits to go along with the "getting in the unit" benefits from enlisting but like mentioned enlisting doesn't guarantee you anything besides maybe one interview downrange. Also when you enlist you will more than likely have to take a semester off from school unless you are somehow able to go to basic and tech school all in the same summer.

Either way I think you will be good if you keep up around the boards, keep flying, and continue to work hard in school and meeting people in Ops at whatever unit(s) you are interested in. You'd be amazed at how far just staying in the loop on AF times and the UPT world will help you when it comes to bullshitting with the pilots and showcasing some excitement and general knowledge for what you want to do. Don't just give up on the AF and go frat it up for 3 years and then hope you can walk in and get hired somewhere (though you don't seem like the type to lose sight of your end goal).

Congrats again. Did you your PAS bust your balls?
ENJJPT Class 10-08 "Tators"
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Joshrk22User is Offline
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Joshrk22


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14 Jul 2009 10:21 PM
Well I have yet to actually go in and tell them, but I talked to them about it a little bit last semester and they didn't take me very serious I don't think. I'm going to be going in this week or next week so I'll let you guys know how it goes. I doubt it's going to go over well..

I have a job lined up at an airport when I get back to school so I'm gonna' get some cheap flight time and will hopefully get quite a bit of flight time in some twins. I guess the next step is talk to an ANG recruiter and get set up to take the TBAS.
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ENmafiaUser is Offline
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ENmafia


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14 Jul 2009 10:37 PM
I would just go in there with a plan and TELL them what you are doing...don't leave it open for debate; unless you want to debate it more.

As far as contacting the recruiter, same thing IMO. Have a game plan. Are you wanting to enlist or just take the TBAS? They are going to try and recruit you and you need to decide if that is the vector you want to take.
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Joshrk22User is Offline
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Joshrk22


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14 Jul 2009 10:48 PM
Yah, I just feel like they're going to really pressure me to stay because after all they are trying to sell their "product" to me, so they're gonna' try to make me stay. I just hope when they fill out a DD785 or whatever it is, they they don't use it against me so it looks bad when I go apply to the guard. With respect to enlisting, I need to get some more information about the whole process before I really begin to consider that. I feel it would be a good experience for me to help me grow as a person, but I don't know if it'd be a good thing to take a semester off of school.
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ENmafiaUser is Offline
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ENmafia


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15 Jul 2009 11:40 AM
They shouldn't be able to give you a bad rating even if they want to. You will more than likely get a 1 or a 2 out of 5 and if they give you a 2 you can just use that as another conversation with the guard or in your interview: "They were pissed I learned about the guard and decided to go that route so they tried to their best to mess with my paperwork."

I believe you can also argue your rating with HQ AFROTC at Maxwell if you feel it is wrong or was made in prejudiced.
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HackerUser is Offline
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Hacker


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15 Jul 2009 12:17 PM
If I were in an ANG unit, and a prospective member showed up for an interview toting that line about his ratings from ROTC, I'd have some serious questions about him as an individual.

The vast majority of the time in the military when someone is pushing the "the man is getting me down" argument, that's not what was actually happening at all.
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Joshrk22


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15 Jul 2009 02:29 PM
I'm just going to be honest about it and tell them I've wanted to fly for the Guard since high school and I feel that it's a better route for me. I feel like they'd rather see an upfront, no BS answer. I mean they probably won't even know about it unless they ask.
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ENmafia


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15 Jul 2009 09:15 PM
Hacker that's not what I meant. I meant from my short time in the guard it is quite obvious that they care more about the whole person concept and how you fit in with the crewdogs than they do about paperwork.

If his ROTC CC tries to dick him over because he isn't going to have a prized Tier 1 Engineering cadet on his books next semester b/c he got smart and realized he belongs in the guard he can fight it or just explain what happened IF it gets brought up during an interview or something. Granted this all speculative and doesn't matter unless you get a ton of heat from your CC Josh; which you shouldn't since you are doing something completely legal and honorable within the bounds of what you signed up for when offered the scholarship.
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